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60 Gallon Tall Planted Tank Journal

13K views 51 replies 12 participants last post by  Professor Monkey 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey all!

Wanted to start a tank journal for my Marineland 60 gallon rectangular tank (48x13x24). Not the best tank to have a planted tank with as it is so tall the light has to travel quite far and it is not very deep which doesn't give me much to work with depth wise. Anyway, bought it back when I was a tank newbie and didn't really know what I was doing or what I should really be looking for. That was about two years ago now. I really wish I would have gotten something shorter. Maybe someday.

I've just made a move up from Nashville TN to Toronto ON and have just restarted the tank/scape. Now I wouldn't call myself a good aquascaper by any means. Usually I just make up a plan while I'm planting. Not the best way I know but it is what I enjoy. And I feel like I am making progress in terms of appearance.

Equipment
Fluval 406 Canister
Maxi-Jet 900 Powerhead with Sponge Filter
Hydor Nano Circulator
Fluval Heater
GLA Inline Atomizer
20 LB CO2
Dual Stage Praxair Regulator
Fabco NV
Tetra Air Pump
Eco-Complete Plant Black (a few red rocks got mixed in somehow - not happy about it)
48" TrueLumen Pro LED 8000k x3

Fish/Inverts
Dwarf Puffers x6
Endler's livebearer x25
Red Ramshorn Snails x30 (and declining)

Plants/Scape
Large Piece of Driftwood (not sure the type)
Couple Rocks (not sure the type)
Water Sprite
Amazon Sword
Xmas Moss
Chain Sword
S. Repens
Baby Tears
Dwarf Baby Tears
Moneywort
Four Leaf Clover
Amaranth Redroot
Vallisneria Nana
Green Temple
Mini Spiral Val
Narrow Leaves Hygrophyla
(Some plants are in real small portions and I'm waiting for them to grow out to really make an impact)

Water
5 KH
6.4 PH when lights on
EI Dosing
50% WC/Week
Just got the CO2 dialed in and started dosing today (03-10-14).

Sorry for the lackluster photos. I'll have to try and get some better ones soon.
All opinions gladly received! Breeder box is temporary!

















 
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#36 ·
The best way is to determine the strength of your light is by looking at example of tanks that use that specific light - not by advertised PAR readings. I really liked LEDS but it was impossible for me to get them (Satellite+) because I want high light.

Long story short, you don't have enough light. Your tank is very tall, even with 2 more LED fixtures, I'm not sure if they can penetrate through the water.

You don't have any algae issues right? That's because you don't have enough light.
 
#37 ·
It seems like people with this fixture are getting between 40-60 par with heights from 22-24".. Mines 24". So too little light then? I had one extra strip (truelumen pro led) complimenting the finnex a couple posts back which resulted in similar gnarled skinny growth. Reading Tom Barr stuff I'm thinking I have too much light for the amount of co2 therefore the plants are stunting. But I really have no idea as there seems to be so much conflicting information out there.
 
#39 ·
I'm now dosing less PO4 and less additional K. A little more light was added. I'll see how it goes. Should I be adding magnesium?

What ph are you guys dropping your tanks down to? I've got a 5 dkh drop checker that turns yellowish green so I think I've got enough co2. Green should be roughly 40ppm.
 
#42 ·
Here is a short vid showing the flow and surface agitation I have going on. I've thought maybe my flow wasn't good enough since it is a tall tank. Need the co2 and nutrients to make it to the bottoms and back plants well for them to grow correct?

I also find without this much flow and agitation, my ph will continue to shift during the lighting period and from what I read that is a big no no. So this is the only way I can reach equilibrium between adding co2 and degassing it resulting in stable ph reading.

Does anyone measure PH to calculate their ph drop for co2 concentrations or do most just use a drop checker? Either way I go I feel like I have enough co2 to be non limiting but still get gnarled curled leaves on new growth (symptom of co2 deficiency) as well as many other deficiencies. I dose ei so I know my ferts aren't wrong which leaves me to co2. I'm guesstimating 50 par currently. People run that without co2 and do fine. I'm adding it and the tank sucks. How can it be possible that I can't get enough co2 into the tank for a measly 50 par.

Honestly three years of trying and not great results. Almost time to call it quits.
 
#46 ·
In your video it looks like the whole surface of the water is rippling which I would classify as a lot of agitation.

I don't have experience with pressurized CO2, but I use DIY CO2 on my planted tanks with great results. CO2 is sucked from my yeast containers by a maxijet powerhead and the flow is directed downward at about 45 degrees. Large bubbles float to the surface quickly and small ones remain suspended in the current. Many of the large bubbles get trapped at the surface by the little bit of bacterial/biofilm that's built up. At the other end of the tank my FX6 outflow causes a small amount of surface rippling and pushes any suspended CO2 bubbles back down towards the substrate.

About 1/10th (maybe less) of the surface has enough disturbance to ripple - the other 9/10th is flat. Because some bubbles are trapped at the surface I can see that the flat surface water is moving very slowly - the bubbles travel from right to left at the back of the tank due to the maxijet, and then are pushed to the front by the FX6 and travel from left to right back towards the maxijet. It probably takes 30 seconds to a minute for the bubbles to complete the circuit.

Remember that gas molecules are moving very fast (O2 molecules in the air travel at 1600 km/h) and will easily escape from a liquid if they can get close to the surface.

With DIY CO2 it is basically impossible to get too much CO2 into the water so I have try to maximize its diffusion - this means getting the bubbles to stay in contact with the water as long as possible and reduce the amount lost at the surface by keeping agitation to a minimum while still having good water movement throughout the tank.

Try reducing your surface agitation and closely monitoring your pH levels - your CO2 is probably escaping at the surface just as fast as you are putting it in.
 
#47 ·
The problem I'm having with that approach is the constant decrease in ph / increase in co2 concentration during the photo period. The co2 gas keeps being dissolved into the water with little movement on top and eventually kills the fish. Equilibrium between adding co2 and off gassing it must be met in order for the co2 concentration to remain stable in the water. In other words, when I try that method, the ph at the start of the photo period will be much higher than at the end. The co2 concentration in the water constantly increases without reaching that equilibrium. The way around that is to run co2 longer so that it eventually does stabilize.

http://www.prirodni-akvarium.cz/en/technikaCO2nastaveni

That article demonstrates what I'm trying to convey. But maybe I'm all wrong in this thinking. I've got both types of tanks running, some with surface agitation and some with very little. I'm not sure I'm seeing any real difference in them though.
 
#48 ·
Awesome article - it very effectively illustrates the advantages and disadvantages of using lots of aeration vs very little. I am a big fan of graphs and figures to illustrate the effects of a variable on the outcome.

I agree with what others have said about light being the driver of plant growth and nutrient requirements - if light is your limiting reactant and there is sufficient intensity for the particular plant species then the growth should be healthy. Plants will only absorb as much nutrients as they need/can store.

You mentioned that you were pushing your pH to 6.0 or less - sounds like you have more than enough CO2.

Have you experimented with adjusting photoperiods and the intensity of light?

My 220gal is also a tall tank - substrate is 26" from the lights. They are rated for 21 PAR at 24" and I have 2 rows of them so that's something like 30 PAR since the rows are spaced out a bit. I run the lights from 7am to noon and then 4pm to 10 pm (Midday siesta let's my co2 levels climb back up, reduces electricity use during peak hours, and gives me more hours of viewing time after work). All of my growth is healthy (nutrients come from the dirt substrate which is capped with gravel).
If you reduce lighting you will reduce the plants' demand on nutrients and CO2 and it should be easier to find a balanced state. When your growth is healthy and no longer showing signs of deficiency you can slowly increase the lighting and adjust your nutrient dosing if signs of deficiency arise again. I remember reading a Tom Barr article on this approach but I can't seem to find it again. It does make sense though that starting with excess CO2 and nutrients and increasing the light until one of the nutrients is the limiting reactant makes it easier to determine what needs to be done to correct the problem.
 
#49 ·
Thanks for your help Professor Monkey.

Light is my only questionable element right now. The only thing I've done to the length of photoperiod is changing it from 8 to 7 hrs about 4(?) months ago. I ran much more intensity when this journal started out and a higher ph (weird). Currently I'm trying to hit 50 par in all my tanks but I'm only just guesstimating what it is, I don't have a par meter. So based on all the posts I can find with my light, I've guesstimated that my light is around 50-55 par. The Finnex DS I'm currently using isn't factory dimmable so I could maybe try to use the glass lids to cut it down a little.

Would 40 par be better suited you think? I'm just finding it hard to believe I don't have enough co2 for 50 par.

I've got a nano 7 or 8 gallon that I'm guesstimating is getting 60 par with a ph of 5.8! Still nothing promising there. Leaves dropping from the bottoms of s repens after getting yellow patches. AR is just pathetic and won't grow. By the way, the water degasses to about a ph of 7.6 when the co2 is off, for most of my tanks.

This is the toughest hobby to master that I've ever tried, or so it seems right now.
 
#50 ·
I agree that your CO2 sounds to be more than sufficient. Nonetheless, it doesn't hurt to have a drop checker to ensure your levels are in fact where you want them to be.

Decreasing your lighting will reduce your plants' nutrient requirements. If they have less energy from the lights they won't be able to fix as much carbon and won't be able to grow/increase in biomass as quickly; they'll have more time to absorb macro and micro nutrients (other than carbon) and should be able to store excess amounts for future use.

I have tried growing plants in inert gravel with medium lighting, diy CO2, and liquid ferts. Growth was okay for awhile but then I started getting deficiencies. I added Flourite substrate to the tank and the growth improvement was outstanding. Having a substrate that can make nutrients available to the plants is almost as important as dosing the nutrients. I see you have eco-complete which has a high CEC to make nutrients bioavailable. Do you vacuum the fish mulm? If you do, I would recommend stopping and letting it settle into the substrate so that the eco-complete can extract the nutrients from it. There may be some micronutrients that your fert dosing is missing.

Good luck and keep trying!
 
#51 · (Edited)
I do vacuum but not very often. Maybe one patch (1/8) of the substrate every month. Maybe more than that, I don't really have a pattern or anything. I feel like I may be doing it too little!

What micro fert are you dosing? I get mine from the local hydroponics shops here in Toronto. I think it is fairly similar to csm+b.

Maybe I'll try adding some excel and see if that improves anything.

I do have some drop checker going. One with 4dkh and one with 5dkh. They are about 6 inches from the substrate. 4dkh is yellow green and 5dkh is a light green. Perplexed.

Substrate change on a tank or two maybe...might be in the near future.
 
#52 · (Edited)
I dose a bit of potassium, and probably should dose nitrogen since my nitrates are barely detectable, but nothing else since I have dirt substrate.

Previously in my tank with flourite substrate I dosed seachem flourish, trace, and iron. I didn't know about dry ferts at the time, but it worked quite well.

Vacuuming mulm should only be done in non-planted tanks or if you can't keep nitrates in check. The mulm has lots of nutrients and as it ages will have a high CEC; having it settle into the substrate makes it a great fertilizer. Ideally you have enough ground cover to hide it or a good current that causes it to collect in the back of the tank.
 
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