GTA Aquarium Forums banner

Here's a BAD way to start an aquarium

7K views 44 replies 12 participants last post by  Hitch 
#1 ·
And it's from the WWF: (no, not the wrestling guys...)

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/teacher_resources/project_ideas/balanced_ecosystem/

No mention of filters or cycling. Introducing fish that eat each other? WTF?

If the population of one species goes down dramatically, try and find the reason why this has happened.
The reason will be Ammonia/Nitrite poisoning.

It's sad that an organization that's supposed to be dedicated toward preserving wildlife doesn't do its homework properly and disseminate this kind of wrong information.
 
#2 ·
Send them some feedback on the right side link!

At the very least they should have linked to some info sites and mentioned that there is more to it than listed, and that the success lies in the science of an aquarium, not their 6 simple steps.
 
#6 ·
Let's not be too hasty. Wild life experts have a different philosophy. They see animals by the thousands or even millions. We see our fish as an individual.
Now being a hobbiest, I obviously don't agree with the way they approach education. If anything, it's misleading at best and animal cruelty at worst. They do need to improve on this 1960's point of view.

Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!
 
#7 ·
Let's not be too hasty. Wild life experts have a different philosophy. They see animals by the thousands or even millions. We see our fish as an individual.
Now being a hobbiest, I obviously don't agree with the way they approach education. If anything, it's misleading at best and animal cruelty at worst. They do need to improve on this 1960's point of view.
Except that this article is a project idea for a "Balanced Ecosystem", but they did not mention the most important component of such an ecosystem, the nitrifying bacteria. This tells me that they (whoever wrote the article and those who allowed it to be published) do not really understand the science behind ecosystems.
 
#8 ·
Just got a response from them:

Hi there
Thanks for writing in. We would love to hear any respectful suggestions you have especially if you can back your thoughts with evidence. What specifically needs improving? How would you write the article?
Thanks for helping us improve our website
Jackie Janosi
WWF International
Global Response Team
Reads like a standard automated response. I have a thought on how to respond, but I'd like to hear some suggestions first.
 
#9 ·
Anyone who attempts to create a "balanced ecosystem" in the way that WWF suggests is DOOMED TO FAILURE! However, the "advice" given is typical for organizations such as WWF, PETA, HSUS, et. al. It's no wonder that such organizations oppose the keeping of aquarium fish as pets, given their level of "expertise". And, I agree that anyone attempting to set up a balanced ecosystem, as WWF suggests, should be charged with animal cruelty.
 
#10 ·
The reply doesn't sound too automated.

I would point out the key items with links to reference. ie: nitrogen cycle, the need for water changes, selection of aquatic species and compatibility, a filter, dechlorinator, types of soil, etc.

Don't be too aggressive, Jackie said 'respectful suggestions' so it sounds like he/she was offended by your initial e-mail. I'm sure the author dumbed it down since he/she is trying to encourage teachers to bring it to the classroom. But they're missing a lot of essential information. Dead fish won't be very interesting to kids.
 
#11 · (Edited)
The reason I think it's automated is because the message does not mention anything specific about the article. The fact that you can use this message to respond to any "negative" feedback on articles is a big giveaway. Why is he asking "what specifically needs improving", when I already told him about the nitrogen cycle?

Here's my original message:

Subj: Your article is poorly researched and gives out false information.

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/...

Please look into the Nitrogen Cycle and research how to set up an aquarium properly. The steps that you describe in the above article will lead to dead fish 95% of the time.
I think I was pretty specific on what "needs improving"....

Anyone who attempts to create a "balanced ecosystem" in the way that WWF suggests is DOOMED TO FAILURE! However, the "advice" given is typical for organizations such as WWF, PETA, HSUS, et. al. It's no wonder that such organizations oppose the keeping of aquarium fish as pets, given their level of "expertise". And, I agree that anyone attempting to set up a balanced ecosystem, as WWF suggests, should be charged with animal cruelty.
I wonder what PETA will think when they hear that WWF is recommending putting fishes in an aquarium that will eat each other. :D
 
#12 ·
Well, as far as WWF is concern, a big fish eating small fish is a part of the natural occurance.
I tried to post my own comment on the website, but I don't think I was sucessful because you need to login as a google mail and I don't have one. By the time I created one, I accidentally delete my 1 page long complain. *sigh*

But I would go along the line that focusing on cycling the fish tank which will help the student understand the micro-biological nature of the ecosystem as well. Teaching them to cycle a fish tank before they put the fish in is a great start. Their current process is a fish cycle; which is outdated as there is a better medium of fishless cycle to start up a fish tank. There is nothing wrong with the orginal article but it is simply an outdated project that is reminicient of the 1960's ideology.
Water change may not be needed if it's a Walsted setup. Which I believe is was this project was aiming for in the first place.
They need to mention the proper lighting or that the tank much be in direct sunlight (which I think was mentioned).
Instead of teaching the child to watch one fish kill another, it would have been much more educational if we teach the child balance the ecosystem to save the fish from dying.

Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!
 
#13 ·
Adding plants eliminate the need to cycle a tank...plants use nh4 as well as no3...So the article is not that far off...but they should of also suggested a power head or some kind of pump to keep the water moving..thats the only difference between a walstad and this article....
 
#14 ·
Actually I got the same response word for word. It's not nessescarily a bot, large companies often have response protocols so that their org appears as a corherent consistent unified group. Like call centres, they usually read responses from a guide based on the convo.

For an article about 'ecosystems' they sure skipped over all the nessescary info about growing an balanced aquatic ecosystem. Is the article directed at learning institutions or something? reminds me of a teachers lesson plan.
 
#15 ·
it does sound a bit out dated but i think they are talking about a true balanced ecosystem with a working food chain, most of us try to make a harmonious tank were they only eat what we feed them. To get a true eco tank you would need a far larger tank than suggested to sustain any sort of food chain, the article seems kinda slap dash to me. If they are suggesting you use river silt them maybe they expect you to use river water also, i get the feeling who ever wrote it was hired to do so and isnt a hobbyist
 
#16 ·
i see some errors. but many people will put plants into a tank and then fish in pretty soon after. sometimes the same day! depending on how many fish and how many plants, but the plants should absorb the ammonium created by ammonia linking with hydrogen to create ammonium. many aquatic plants can utilize ammonium just like nitrates. its dependent on the pH of the water though.

The whole fish eating other fish thing doesn't work for me. I think a person should at least research what fish go well together before even going to the store. the filter thing is pretty wrong too. for someone like me who has had 'dead spots' in my tank killing things, good circulation/good is key.


PS. people feed other fish to other fish all the time.. carnivorous fish ARE part of the natural ecosystem
 
#17 ·
i see some errors. but many people will put plants into a tank and then fish in pretty soon after. sometimes the same day! depending on how many fish and how many plants, but the plants should absorb the ammonium created by ammonia linking with hydrogen to create ammonium. many aquatic plants can utilize ammonium just like nitrates. its dependent on the pH of the water though.
Actually, not quite. It's not enough to have plants to absorb ammonia, you need *healthy, growing* plants, and that entails a whole other can of worms, as we all know.
 
#19 ·
A silent cycle (cycling with plants) does not mean your tank is cycle. It's actually the opposite because it will take you months to cycle your tank. The whole concept is to allow the plants to absorb ammonia, hence eliminating the nitrifications bacterias from converting the chemicals to nitrite or even nitrate. But because of this, it's in direct competition with the bacteria, there is very little nitrification bacteria in your tank or filter for the first month or two. You'll go like this for several months until your bacteria can colonize itself based on the excess of ammonia avail in the water colomn. You can do this by slowly removing the plants to allow the switch over to bacterias. But until then, your tank is in a semi-cycle state.
Also, (this is from my experience), you'll still need to grow your plants at least a week before you add fish. This is because for the first week, you'll want your plants to propertly develope a proper root system. After about a week, you can start adding fertilizers, which will promote the growth of leaves, which is where the ammonia absortion takes place. This will help alot in eliminating algae blooms.

Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!
 
#20 ·
A silent cycle (cycling with plants) does not mean your tank is cycle. It's actually the opposite because it will take you months to cycle your tank. The whole concept is to allow the plants to absorb ammonia, hence eliminating the nitrifications bacterias from converting the chemicals to nitrite or even nitrate. But because of this, it's in direct competition with the bacteria, there is very little nitrification bacteria in your tank or filter for the first month or two. You'll go like this for several months until your bacteria can colonize itself based on the excess of ammonia avail in the water colomn. You can do this by slowly removing the plants to allow the switch over to bacterias. But until then, your tank is in a semi-cycle state.
Also, (this is from my experience), you'll still need to grow your plants at least a week before you add fish. This is because for the first week, you'll want your plants to propertly develope a proper root system. After about a week, you can start adding fertilizers, which will promote the growth of leaves, which is where the ammonia absortion takes place. This will help alot in eliminating algae blooms.
no quite...but way to use logic...

the truth is here....so read this http://www.rexgrigg.com/cycle.htm
 
#25 ·
yes i dose nitrates as soon as plants are in the tank..

these are not terrestrial plants were talking about...the rules dont apply..
aquatic plants absorb nutrients from the substrate or the water collumn..
Roots mean very little...with some exceptions...crypts, swords etc...
Plants uptake of ammonia or nitrates depends on light and co2..not roots..
photosynthesis works in this order...light->co2->nutrients...
the more light the more co2 the more nutrients..
people usually run into algae because of light and co2 inbalances..algae and plants compete for light..co2 is plants advantage not algaes..or they run into algae by limiting nutrients..this only hurts plants since algae is not limited by low nitrates or phosphate or any other nutrient..0.1ppm is enough for algae to grow..

There are some other triggers that cause algae to start its life cycle but they only result in growing algae if tank conditions are not optimal..low oxygen, ammonia spikes, organics..etc..all are triggers...

algae free tanks are simple...supply both nutrients and co2 at non limiting levels, keep filters clean, have lots of flow and use light as the limiting factor..
 
#26 ·
Exactly, in order to have a successful silent cycling, you need to dose ferts and inject CO2, not to mention adequate wattage of light. Otherwise, you run the risk of algae blooms and/or ammonia/nitrite spikes.

It's not really something that beginners would know about.
 
#27 ·
dosing nitrates has nothing to do with it...ammonia is a nitrogen source..
you can't just dose nitrates and expect plants to grow...they need P, and K as well as fe, mg, etc...
I did a silent cycle in a non co2 tanks as well..i also dose nitrates, phosphates etc...in that tank...I only do water changes monthly...It has wormcastings capped with sand and has a huge bioload.. 1wpg of t12 light...the plants grow really slow but thats the limitation in light..no algae..healthy fish..

It all comes down to light in most cases...If you look up on these forums the number 1 suggestion when some one asks why my plants are not doing well?..
is... add more light..then 2 weeks later there back asking why they have algae with there new t5ho fixture..

The answer should be dose fertilizer...after when they get comfortable with that..it should be add co2...then lastly add more light...Light is only a good idea after your comfortable with nutrients and co2 since light drives the demand for both of these..

Newbies are always lead to believe more light=beautiful tank but low light non co2 tanks can be just as nice they just take longer to grow..
 
#30 · (Edited)
Do you just make this up on ur own or did you read this false info somewhere?

Difference between terrestrial and aquatic plants and how roots only play a role in terrestrial plants not aquatic..http://www.eoearth.org/article/Aquatic_plants?topic=58075

Ill post a link regarding substrate analysis but the sites currently down..
Ada has nutrients...flourite and eco are inert...other then some iron and calcium..
A rich substrate is not needed if you dose ferts in the water collum...how do you think floating plants survive?. How do people grow plants in play sand? look around on other sites..theres tons of example of plants grown in inert substrates..

photsynthesis has an order..light drives co2 demand which then drives nutrient demand..heres a link so you can educated urself on pretty much everything discussed in the post..This .pdf discusses the limiting light method but also discusses fert dosing and photosynthesis..Its wrote by Tom Barr..The guy who came up with ei..

http://www.siliconvalleyaquariumsociety.com/Downloads/Light_limiting_talk_for_SVAS.pdf

heres an article from Tropica on light and co2..also a good read..
http://www.tropica.com/advising/technical-articles/biology-of-aquatic-plants/co2-and-light.aspx

And lastly heres a discussion that explains why algae and plants do not compete for nutrients but light
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200107/msg00080.html

here is some forum disccusions

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/general-planted-tank-discussion/79107-how-can-plants-outcompete-algae-nutrients.html

or this

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/55767-why-increase-macro-nutrients-supposed-help-2.html

If you understand the science then you can give sound advice..
 
#31 ·
not to get myself into the discussion.

But you guys do realize that the term "plant" encompass MANY different specie spanning over MANY different ways in which they obtain nutriment, O2, CO2, light etc?

So both statements of "aquatic plants need roots" and "aquatic plants dont need roots" are correct and incorrect at the same time...
 
#32 ·
Yes ur correct..but for our use plants do not need roots...people test this all the time...by cutting the tops off stem plants and replanting..without roots they still grow don't they....Swords which are said to be huge root feeders are no exception..you can remove the roots and they still grow..
terrestrial plants are also capable of feeding from the leaves but not capable of surviving in a submersed location.... co2 limitation I assume is part of the cause. Even in a co2 injected tank there is still a difference of about 650ppm compared to the atmosphere.
 
#33 ·
the fact that they constantly regrowing their roots is in itself support to the idea that roots are still necessary for the plant.

If you take a branch of an apple tree, put it in a pot with good soil, it will grow and eventually re-grow its roots. The fact that they do survive without a root right after its cut, doesnt "prove" an apple tree doesnt need roots.

I do agree that if you take clipping from a stem plant and it will survive, but eventually they will regrow roots. It brings to mind a question of why would nature select for having a root if these plants dont need a root.

Kinda wish we had a botanist on this forum...
 
#35 ·
#37 ·
that paper specifically says dry ammonia, with similar characteristics with wet ammonia (ref 2). Since we are talking about aquatic plants, and water is made up of hydrogen and oxygen, the ammonia would quickly, but not always, turn into ammonium. so you can try to debunk what I'm saying, but we're pretty much saying the same thing in different context.

Anyways, i just agree that people should be knowledgeable when starting up a tank. Read, plan, and learn, and be prepared too. The WWF telling people to plant plants, pour in water, drop in fish and 'observe what happens' is definitely not a practice I agree with.

And that ends my input in this discussion.
 
#38 · (Edited)
betta..depending on ph and temp you will get either high nh4 and low nh3 or vise versa...both can be used by plants..
nh3 in higher concentrion is toxic where nh4 is not..so nh4 is prefered

I agree 100% about people need to research before getting into this hobby. If anything it will save them money..
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top